“Nobody cares about how you are doing it – they care about what they see” – HASSAN HODGES
#021 – In this episode, Hassan and I discuss the importance of volume when it comes to content. We talk through how to prioritize, how focus can be your friend, and some common myths about photographers.
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Highlights from this episode:
[3:38] The online and offline relationships social media creates
[6:30] Dealing with Inadequacy
[11:20] Why is volume important?
[13:45] Importance of focusing on a few platforms when starting
[21:43] Myths about photography
[26:29] Advice Hassan would give to his younger self
Connect with Hassan:
Website
Instagram
A little bit about Hassan:
Hassan is a professional photographer, and a software consultant. He’s building an app, and in the middle of writing a memoir all along with also being a parent, husband and a content creator online. He has 1700 followers on twitter, and over 2000+ on Facebook and Instagram combined! Talk about juggling many things at once.
Transcription:
Hassan Hodges
If you’re going to post once a day, people will show up once a day, if you’re really lucky, the more more often you can put stuff out there, the more the the algorithms will see you having interactions and the more people will will interact. So just getting more stuff out there gives you more chances.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
You are listening to the Spicy Chai podcast. I’m your host, Mahrukh Imtiaz. And I’m on a journey to create inspiring, helpful and meaningful content. This podcast is not going to showcase high-profile individuals spouting Hollywood advice like find your passion or hustle harder. Instead, my mission is to bring you the voices of people who are just a bit ahead of you. People you can relate to, and the people who will inspire you to put your own voice out there.
So grab your cup of Spicy Chai, and let’s get this show started.
Welcome to the spicy Chai podcast. Our guest today is a professional photographer, a software consultant, someone who’s also building an app, someone who’s in the middle of writing a memoir, all along being a badass parent and a content creator online, where he has 1700 followers on Twitter and over 2000 plus followers in Facebook and Instagram combined. Talk about juggling many things at once. Welcome to the show, Hassan.
Hassan Hodges
Thanks for having me, Mahrukh.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Yeah, and honestly, with all that’s going on right now in your life, I just want to start with what got you started even while we’re even posting stuff like what’s been your journey,
Hassan Hodges
My journey has been keeping up with, with new things. I actually started with a in old school content, so things that were actually newspapers. So that was a thing that I got into in, in college. And I’ve always loved news. And that gave me kind of the foundation of always wanting to share things and having bits of factual information out there. So that was the first place I started thinking about content. And then kind of as as new things popped up, they they really became things that I started to get into the the first social network that I was like, This is gonna be amazing. And this was like a significant part of my life was Flickr. Oh,
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Wow. Yeah,
Hassan Hodges
It was Yeah. Yep. 2005 was when I really started to get excited about that. Right.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
And for people who don’t know what Flickr is, would you mind just expanding a bit on that?
Hassan Hodges
Sure. It was a photo based social network. So the whole thing was about posting photos. And that had a huge impact on me becoming a photographer, because I picked up a ton of skills from starting to put photos out there and seeing what was getting interaction and what was not getting interaction, and then seeing other people’s photos, and learning from them. And also just making friends and just having that that interplay. And it’s like now I’ve got people that, yeah, we’ve been friends for 15 years, and we’re connected and have watched each other’s kids grow up and we’ve never met face to face.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
That’s incredible. That’s serious. And that’s, that’s really the power of content, right? Because what you said was very important. Did you know that you were like the that you’d like photography before Flickr? Or where is it like, this is something I want to try.
Hassan Hodges
The first place I got the photo bug was that my, my area newspapers was graphics, so information, graphics and maps, that was my, my niche. And that was always seated right next door to the photographers. And they were doing really cool things. And that was the place where I first got the bug of like, oh, I can see that. And that’s making a really powerful connection when you’re when you’re sitting with people who are focused on on photography, because it’s very easy, especially now with a phone just about Yep, I’ve taken a picture and we have that picture and you’re not giving it much thought it’s just kind of a commodity thing. But when you look at people who are really looking at photos, there’s so much more that that goes into them and so many things you just want to eliminate from that scene to make it clearly communicate stuff for you know, making sure you’ve got eyes in the mirror that’s looking back at you. So there’s always just these these tips to look out for and that was where I first got into doing serious photography and then just kind of made it a hobby and you know, kind of learned a whole bunch of skills with Flickr. And you know, that introduced me to a bunch of other photographers and people that had courses and you know, just kind of learning from from that material. But when I decided to actually become No photographer, it was that I, I’d taken these skills. And I had a friend who was doing a, an event. And the night before the event that I was speaking out about the app that I’m I’m building, and the story of how I got to that, but they talked me into, hey, you take photos for fun, you want to take photos for the event. So I showed up at the event, and I had three remote free lights that I was operating remotely and two big bags of equipment and all sorts of gear that I’ve picked up. And it took photos, there was one picture in particular, that was just kind of a an end of the event picture of one of the other speakers was was hugging his girlfriend, and there were just a great set of hands in the back that just showed that it was a a tight, loving embrace. And I looked at that photo, I’m like, wow, that’s that touched me. And then I shared the photos that I had that one and all the others with, with other folks that were at the event and everybody took those photos and made them their their Facebook profile pictures and reshard them, as is huge get of feedback. And all these people saying, Wow, you’re not a professional photographer, you should be a professional photographer, right? I should be a professional photographer. As just kind of in that moment, I’m like, Let’s go for it. Let’s let’s give this a try and see where it goes. I’ve got these skills that are above average. And let’s see what what that can turn into.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
That’s incredible that you had a photography bug, then you went online on Flickr, you learned skills, you met people. And that’s kind of how you turned a hobby into something that you’re actually doing, or going into doing full time. Now you started as a side hustle. And now you’re potentially going into full time that I mean, that’s, that’s incredible. And that’s what like a lot of people want to do with social media. But I want to ask you, when you’re starting off, especially when you started putting your own pictures online, as a photographer, what were some of the fears that you were dealing with
Hassan Hodges
Big ones you run into? Or is this good enough and inadequacy and so easy to look at other things that are are out there and seeing people are doing stuff that’s going well, you’re like, Oh, my things aren’t, aren’t that well, and I struggle with this now where a lot of my stuff I’m I’ve got a mix of landscapes and portraits and things that don’t always go together and kind of lacking focus on on stuff. And it’s very easy to look at other people who have things that are all together and be like, Oh, I’m just not as as good as that person. But you got to remember that other people are coming in with a, you’re seeing an edited version of what they’re doing. The other thing that is kind of a theme that pops up from, you know, the places where I learned from the audience that like the photos, and I learned from the audience on Flickr is that it’s all about relationships, and back and forth. And the things that we’re creating are what helped make us better content creators. So that’s why it’s so important to just create and get that that interaction with things because when you get that interaction, it gives you you know, just a little little bug to push yourself further and it helps refine things and it also just shows you what’s working, and you know, where your your audience is, and some of its kind of, you don’t want to have the tail wagging the dog too far. But you want to see what what people are interacting with. Because that’s that’s what your audience is going to be.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Yeah, and I love that because you went from a mindset of is this good enough to now you’re thinking even when I create something because I’m creating it and posting it, it has that ability for me to at least improve that because the feedback I’m getting so how did you get into that mindset? How did you go from I don’t know if this is good enough what will people think to you know what it’s not it’s not and that’s fine, I’ll get feedback and I’ll improve
Hassan Hodges
I think the thing you run into with the with feedback in and kind of a mindset around it is just kind of disappointment of stuff that doesn’t work well it’s like all these tools have you know, have a way to show you what’s working, what’s not working and these can be kind of destructive ego things where you’re like, Oh, this isn’t working but volume helps you do the next thing that does work. And when you get one thing that goes big like Google you just want to get that kind of that boost back so it’s all about the you know these feedback loops and they can be destructive for mental health but they can be really helpful for showing you which which content people are engaging and all of those metrics are what play into the the algorithms that control what becomes popular so you can it can get kind of depressing to look at this stuff kind of as the the systems of interaction with it. But you know, people are commenting people are liking things, those drive more interactions and if you’re To post once a day, people will show up once a day if you’re really lucky. But the more more often you can put stuff out there, the more the the algorithms will see you having interactions and the more people will will interact. So just getting more stuff out there gives you more chances that it’s like, yeah, if you have a one in 10 chance of something doing well, if you post 10 things, then it’s much more likely that it’s going to get get some interaction. And when things aren’t doing well, the algorithms kind of bury them and nobody sees them anyway. So there’s not much much downside to having things. And you we have tools now for going back. And yeah, we’re just gonna take a thing that didn’t do well. And that’s going to delete it and are archived and it’s not out there. And it’s actually some stuff that I did at the tail end of my my newspaper career as well, where things are done more transitions into a digital space. And we’re trying to figure out how to make content do better online. And one of the big things we kept coming back to when you start to take the the analytics around which posts are doing well is that volume is a big driver. So to
Mahrukh Imtiaz
So, to quantity just more posts more quantity 100%. And you know, this kind of like reminds me as you said that of
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Especially I think you would resonate with this, because you’re juggling so many things. And when you also have that quantity, not only just like in terms of posting on platform or different platforms or doing different things you’re going to have days was as you said, where there’s going to be no likes, there’s going to be no comments, and the algorithm is just going to just bury that, but at the same time, you’re also okay with that. Because there yes, there are certain failures, but there are certain things that are going well at that time, because you’re juggling so many things at once. It’s almost like one thing Gary Vaynerchuk Hicks always says is, I’m okay with losing, because it’s like I have 100 things going and I’m winning at 88. And yes, I’m losing at 20 to 1812. Sorry, my max is not working here right now. 1212. Yes. But that’s fine. Because I mean, yes, I’m losing 12. But there’s 88 wins. But people always want that one, zero, I want to win it this not let me do 100 things, let me try to get that quantity. Even if 88 of those fail, let’s say the opposite way 12 of those will do well. So yeah,
Hassan Hodges
So, yeah this is actually something that has kind of a philosophical overlap with photography, too, right? Where I shoot a ton of pictures. But my goal with shooting a ton of pictures is not to have a ton of great photos at the end, it’s to have a few great photos. And there’s kind of a joke of, you know, the amateur photographer goes out and takes one picture. It looks horrible, they walk away upset, the professional photographer goes out, takes one picture, they don’t walk away upset, they take 500 more. And at the end of the day, they’ve got seven that work. But if you just keep going with stuff, it’s not about the use of baseball metaphor, it’s not about the batting average, it’s only about the homeruns. And those, those things that do great, have so much more, you know, just an outsized impact and reach. And then I’ve got, you know, a few photos I’ve taken where it’s like, oh, this is like, the definitive photo that captures that moment didn’t you know, it’s like this slice of childhood is, is summed up in this one picture. And that, you know, having a, you do volume, so you can get to the individual ones. And it’s, it’s all just a process. Yeah. And
Mahrukh Imtiaz
I love that. And it’s funny, because even not a photographer myself, but whenever I go to birthday parties, that’s the mindset I apply. I’m like, I’m going to take so many pictures, hopefully, there’s gonna be one that everyone likes, you know, but it’s, it’s weird how people don’t think of translating that into content creation, like, you know, I’ve heard like, let’s take 10 selfies, and one of them will come out, right? Well, it’s the same thing with posts, you create, you create and one of them will come out the one that will resonate. So I really, really loved I love how like it’s very related to photography, which I technically do and didn’t even think about in general.
Hassan Hodges
One thing I would put a an asterix on with these, this area of doing all sorts of different things is that you do need some some focus within it. And I’m selective about which social networks I’m I’m really active in just because of capacity. And it’s very easy. But yeah, I’m going to be in all of these different places, but you need to be in those places enough that you’re actually getting those feedback loops and that you you have enough volume going through things and people can see when you were posting something that goes to all the different platforms and is not really optimized for that thing. Like I see friends who Have posts going out on on Instagram that have links that are not clickable in the captions and you’re like, Oh, yep, I can see you’re phoning it in on this platform. So you should choose your platforms and do well on those and you know, and drive up your volume. You don’t want to be like, Hey, I’ve gotten 19 places that are updated twice a year. Right? Well, I have, you know, places where you can actually have a solid presence.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Right? And that’s very interesting that you mentioned that. So how do you think people let’s say, photographers who are starting out? How do they choose those platforms that they want to focus on? How did you go about choosing yours? For me,
Hassan Hodges
For me, when I was in the in a journalism space, Twitter, since 2008, or so when I was really as big deal on Twitter. Now, it wasn’t a huge deal. But that was the the place where I was putting my energy and my focus was was growing my Twitter audience because it was, you know, it had the connections with with news. But since then, Facebook kind of became a place for my personal interactions. And then when I got more into photography, flickers community, it kind of dried up and wasn’t the the place where the audience was, because they didn’t make a great transition into mobile. But Instagram became that space where it took those friends over and brought them connected with them on the new platform. That’s where the, you know, the dynamic conversations about photography or, or going on. And it’s always, when the next platform comes out, there’s always a kind of a rush to establish a presence on that new platform. Because people are are there they’re new, they’re looking around, and everybody’s kind of lost, it’s kind of like that, that first week of, of college when everybody’s dumped into the freshman dorm, and you’re just trying to like, make friends, because everybody’s in the same boat and like rapidly connecting with people. So you have that opportunity when networks are new and growing. And that can be a place to get into things because there’s a an opportunity there. Because when things are more established, you have the larger players, but when everybody’s new, it’s an opportunity for everybody.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Right? So definitely tapping the newer social networks versus trying to go on more established ones is what I really got out of that. And I completely agree. Because what it does also is like just like you figure it out, okay, you know what, I really enjoyed Twitter, because you had the journalism background. And then you move into Facebook, then you moved into Instagram. It’s also where you probably have fun posting, it’s probably also where it’s familiar. And I think that’s an important point that it’s also important to experiment with different platforms, and then realize which one is the one that you are resonating with the most and which one is the one that you are having most fun with. Like, to be very honest, I have tried Twitter, and I just don’t have fun with it. Like, you know, and too many people telling me I need to be on Twitter, but I’m not having fun with it. So but I’m going to try tapping on tick tock a lot, Instagram, I do Facebook, so you know, a clubhouse. So it just, it’s so important to understand that you’re only going to produce that volume, you’re only going to produce that quantity when you are also having fun in the process. And when you were also like, Alright, I want to do this versus this is a chore. So I think that’s an important distinction. Yes, yeah.
Hassan Hodges
And that that fun part. That’s the thing that’s absolutely critical. Like you don’t want to be like, oh, yeah, I’m here because like as, as these networks have evolved, they’ve become places that give more intimate views into our lives. So whether that’s doing a live on any one of these platforms or things that are video, they’re just fewer places to hide, like it’s, it’s possible to write, you know, a beat copy, when you’re not very excited about something, it’s a lot harder to do an upbeat, engaging live video begrudgingly, because you’re just not in the right headspace. And the it just does not translate over. So you got to make sure you’re, you’re having fun on these platforms. And that’s what’s going to, you know, for the content I produce, a lot of it is geared at Fun, whether it’s a joke, or whether it is showing wonderful content, family interactions and things. That’s, you know, that stuff that shows through, so you got to make sure that you’re you’re having fun on these platforms.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Yes. 100%. And one thing that I did want to focus on that she’s mentioned a little earlier is that when you choose platforms, you know what to focus on. And that means you know how to prioritize right? And given that you are juggling so many things at once. I want to learn like what is your system for going about and I know that people different people have different systems, what is your system to knowing what to prioritize for the day or what to prioritize for the month?
Hassan Hodges
I wish I had a wonderful answer here. I think one of the things that is very important with prioritizing For a day is prioritizing for a week or a month or a year, and figuring out what you are not going to do. Because that, that place of what you’re not going to do is what creates the space for doing everything else that you want to do and doing that. Well. And this is something I know I’ve, I’ve struggled with of just having too many different things going on, which pulls me in different directions. So for the app that I’m working on, I have not given that the the time and energy it has, it’s needed to to fully grow. So I’ve put content out there, it’s got a you know, an Instagram page that has a couple 100 followers, but it’s really not not getting a ton of interaction because I’m not doing the things to to push out to people and to directly reach out because it’s not just the Hey, I’ve posted, it’s also making connections because these are, you know, are ways to scale intimacy with with other people and just build relationships. So back to prioritizing as I wandered off into that direction, the system that I use, which is not one that I can really recommend is Oh, no, I haven’t posted on here in a while. And I need to hurry up and do something. If I had fewer things that I was dealing with something I’m I’m trying to work more on, on focus, I would do as much as I could to plan things out ahead of time. So have a combination of posts that are tied to different landmarks and events that are happening and really craft the story that I want to tell and sit down and and plan all of that. And then while that story is playing out in a scheduled way, then sprinkle in individual things that are popping up at the same time. But try to have the place where you’re, you know, your plan story that you want to tell is scheduled ahead of time. Yeah,
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Yeah, and I think the I think the very important part in what you just said is that even though at times you’re not planning or most of times, you’re not planning, you’re still putting content out there. And maybe it might not be at the frequency you’d like. But it’s still out there. So you’re still way ahead in terms of where you where you started. Obviously you’re in on the journey of being even better at it. But posting even though it’s not every day is still getting you out there and people are interacting. I think that’s the important piece here. Especially when you’re starting out with like a full time job being a parent. I think it’s such an important piece to remember.
Hassan Hodges
Yeah, cuz the the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is today. Exactly,
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Exactly. I love that. Exactly. And now we would we talked about some fun postings, I do want to touch on this, what are some common myths that you’d like to debunk about being a photographer who posts content,
Hassan Hodges
One that I struggle with is the need for perfection and quality over just having things that are out there. So I’ve got a really fancy professional camera. It has 50 megapixels of resolution and all sorts of weather sealing and all these great things but nobody actually cares about that. They just care, the photo looks good. And phones are pretty darn good these days. And I have my my personal Instagram account that I post stuff that comes from my phone. And I wind up with more volume there because I can just say I took this photo of this thing that I saw. And here it is that I just produced it through my phone. Whereas the you know the other camera camera, that’s where stuff that’s going on to my my photography, Instagram account goes. And I wind up with a little bit less volume there because I’ve you know, I’ve perfected it. So if I hope people are still not struggling with thinking that perfection beats stuff beats out quantity. But that’s a a myth that I think we should all pay attention to and making sure that we are producing more because it’s about the engagement and the interaction, not about the perfection
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Not about the perfection of that it also really like how it’s important to mention that it’s you don’t need fancy equipment, you can have a phone like and you know obviously the your your foot professional photographer, so you do do use that camera for clients, but most of the time you use your phone, and that’s okay if people are starting off as photographers and they just want to learn the craft. They want to put their stuff out there and just like you did with Flickr in 2005. It’s also okay to start with your camera. You don’t need the fancy equipment. Even more important you don’t need that excuse to stop you from posting online. Yeah, that’s extremely important. In
Hassan Hodges
The fancy equipment has a He has a place. But it’s to do to enable other forms of, of art and expression. But there’s so much that, you know, that happens with a with a phone that is accessible or with a low end camera, you can get to things that don’t let the quality or the tools and you know, I’ve fallen into this trap myself before it’s like, oh, once I get this new thing, I can do something else. But nobody actually cares about how you’re doing it. It’s as long as you can deliver the you know, the feelings and the interactions and and those things and the lights can be helpful, and you can do more with it. But it’s not, it’s not necessary, you can add them in later. I
Mahrukh Imtiaz
I love that. I love that. I think there’s been so much gold for people listening on not just early on photographers, but even just content creators in general. Volume volume has been key throughout. So let’s on where can people where can our listeners connect with you online, the
Hassan Hodges
The best place to find my most exciting stuff is Hasan Hodges photo on Instagram. So that’s ha SS a NHODGS photo. And then Hassan Hodges photography.com is my website. And then you’ll also find me in a couple other places with the username that ties back to my geography and Cartography days of map goblin ma P Gob li n. That’s
Mahrukh Imtiaz
That’s awesome. Thank you so much, Hassan. And one final question for you. What advice would you give your five year old younger self like not five year like five years like five years younger self? Well, while you’re creating content,
Hassan Hodges
The advice I would give is not to stop that anytime that I have taken breaks from things you just wind up seeing a that growth curve level off when you when you stop posting on things. So one of the things I struggled with during during the pandemic, which is not over, but badly. Yeah, I had slowed down with some of my my efforts at growing my photography audience just I wasn’t sure where where that was going to go and I put more effort into my software work, you can see that if like the growth of like, yeah, it was growing well, and then it just stopped. And I’ve picked that up again, and the curve is picking up. But it’s like that’s just a gap in time when growth could have been. And there are ways to achieve cheap, steady growth. And there are ways to pay for growth. And it’s better to have the cheap steady ones. It takes longer. So don’t waste that time that you you have consistency is is going to pay off in the long run.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
I love that consistency and momentum. Use the momentum when you’re posting just keep going. I love that. And thank you so much for coming on today. For everyone listening. Make sure you go follow us on I love his posts.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
They make me laugh every time. I don’t think he knows that. But I’m saying that right now. And if there’s anything that inspired you today, please share. We’re also both available on Instagram. So if there’s anything you want to share about this episode, just DMS. That’s also good. So thank you again and until next week, you got this beautiful thank you.
Hey you thanks for listening to Spicy Chai I really appreciate it. And to make sure you never miss an episode subscribe to the podcast, the obvious and if you want to learn more, head over to mahrukhimtiaz.com and until next time my friend hit the record button or you know the publish lots of love from your favorite. You got this beautiful!
