“I can’t add value to people until I put something out there” – MATTHEW LEE BURGESS
#015 – In this episode, Matthew and I discuss why Matt felt obligated to share his pastry chef knowledge with the world through his podcast. We talk through some of the challenges that Matt faces as a food content creator, how he gets over his need to be perfect, and fear setting.
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Highlights from this episode:
[1:36] Matt’s story
[5:26] What inspired Matt
[9:56] Matt:I have so many things that I care and love about and I feel like I am not doing any of them well
[10:22] Matt: Perfectionism and running out of time because I am too much of a perfectionist
[17:33] Fears when starting a podcast
[22:06] People who have influenced Matt on his journey
Connect with Matthew:
A little bit about Matt:
Matt Burgess, “Chef Matt” is a former baker, cook, and pastry chef has his sights set on one clear mission, helping aspiring bakers and pastry chefs improve their skills without taking on a lifetime of debt. With backgrounds in cooking, pastry, design, and customer service he works in each moment to distill his experience as pastry chef into digestible pieces of information.
Resources mentioned:
Tools of Titans
Pat Flynn
Amy Porterfield
Transcription:
Matthew Lee Burgess
But I feel sorry for anyone who has to hear it. But design is everything like it’s anytime you make a change in the world that you think is going to change something else. It’s designed and it could be simply that, you know, I want to see if someone will deviate from a path if I put a box in the road. I mean, technically that’s designed, it’s kind of frivolous. It’s more of like a psychological study than anything, right, but it’s designed because you intentionally change the world to see if it would have an impact.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
You are listening to the Spicy Chai podcast. I’m your host, Mahrukh Imtiaz. And I’m on a journey to create inspiring, helpful and meaningful content. This podcast is not going to showcase high-profile individuals spouting hollow advice like find your passion or hustle harder. Instead, my mission is to bring you the voices of people who are just a bit ahead of you. People you can relate to, and the people who will inspire you to put your own voice out there.
So grab your cup of Spicy Chai, and let’s get this show started. \
Welcome to Spicy Chai. Our guest today is a podcast host of Bake Like a Chef. He’s a former baker, cook and pastry chef and his show is all about diving deep into everything you need to learn and grow your professional pastry skills. And within the first few months of launching his podcast, he has gathered 100 downloads already. And so without further ado, I’m gonna welcome Matt.Wwelcome to the show, Matt,
Matthew Lee Burgess
Thank you very much. It’s great to be here. Happy to talk to you.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Happy to have you here too. So just to start things off, could you go a little bit about your story? Like what got you started? A? What, what? What got you started on a journey of becoming a baker? And then what propelled you to start sharing that journey online?
Matthew Lee Burgess
Oh, so you know, I go over this, I believe in the first episode. But I’m always happy to talk about it. It’s something that I had a burning desire to do. And I don’t know if it was simply that I’ve always been, you know, a pastry chef or if I just got a lot of positive reinforcement when I was a kid there were there two things I dug into deeply. Well, three things I dug into deeply when I was a kid, computers, cooking and baking. And then just being outdoors and doing things outdoors. And the computers and baking came together in a really odd way. I remember my grandmother would always give me recipes, even at a young age. I mean, I started cooking when I was 10. Oh wow. Things that my family never thought to cook. Yeah. I remember one day because something my grandmother and I had in common. And this is my my dad’s mother. She handed me a recipe written on a punch card, the computer programming punch cards because my dad when he was getting his degree in accounting, he had to program computers because he was of that age. I had and I had these recipes written on on punch cards.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
What is a punch card? Like I haven’t even heard of that. So
Matthew Lee Burgess
So, early computers, you would write programs by punching holes and paper cards, and you keep them in an order. And then you would run your program by feeding it through a machine and there all sorts of jokes about someone, you know, going into the computer with their stack and then dropping it and their programs broken. Wow.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Okay. Yeah, yeah. But from
Matthew Lee Burgess
But from there, it was just a continual. It was a piece of continual growth I was. I was turning into this person through what I think is what I call the food revolution. This is when Food TV blew up. And so I was heading in that direction. And then I saw people on television doing the thing that I loved doing. I couldn’t go do it as a degree. It just could not afford it. There was no way to do that. I worked in kitchens from a relatively young age. And then as time passed, it was just something that even after you know, getting a degree and getting into my first handful of jobs, I thought you know what, I should really pursue this because I’m going to, you know, be 5061 Day and regret not having done it.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
So many jobs. In the baking field. You’re saying no,
Matthew Lee Burgess
I did a lot of cooking. Okay, restaurant cooking, I was cooking at bowling alleys and chain restaurants and things of that nature. I did some work at a deli and an ice cream shop pizza place. You know, you name it. I’ve probably cooked there. But I thought there was an opportunity to take it to another level and is odd in it in a job interview a couple of years ago as a contractor. I had a developer look at me and he said pastry chef. Well, that’s kind of like design, isn’t it? And I’m like yeah, it is it’s designed. It’s the same thing. It’s like industrial design, but your your materials fall apart quickly if you don’t pay attention. Yeah, but going down that well. So at that point I made that decision right I need to do this, I have to do this. And I went and did the training. And it was about 10 years after I finished the training. So I worked as a pastry chef afterwards, I did a few stands with some really great chefs. I did some catering work, I was moved into the position of being a chef, you know, I managed to kitchen I worried about cost I dealt with employees, all of that stuff. That’s not a thing that makes you chef. Right. And then from there, I, I ran into an impasse. And this is part of what inspired me. You can’t it’s hard to afford culinary training. Right being paid as it’s impossible, you get paid Max, at least at the time, it was told to 15 bucks an hour, and you have to pay off effectively a college tuition. Wow. And so I was sitting there about six years ago, and I’m sitting working on some instructional design for aircraft for aircraft instructors, CFI, as they would renew their their certification to teach how to fly. And I was doing instructional design. And I thought, why am I not doing this? To help chefs like I should I need to do this. There’s an there is a you know, a strong need for it in the world. And there’s no reason for someone to have to go and take on a lifetime worth of debt. In order to become a pastry chef. It just does not make any sense at all. And I think subsequently, a lot of culinary schools ran into challenges with that lawsuits and stuff, because it’s kind of an unfair game unless, you know, I had I had someone in my class who is her husband was in the the financial space, and they had a house in Maui and a house in Los Angeles. And she was just doing it for fun. Like, I totally got that. Right. If you want to drop that money, getting that education, and you have that disposable income, go for it. It’s a really wonderful thing to do. It’s fun, you learn a lot, you think differently. But yeah, so that is my complete story. Yeah.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Oh, that’s no, that’s, that’s perfect. And that’s, that’s amazing. Because you’ve always had this burning desire to be a chef, you actually did go through the training, and then you realize you want to pivot a little bit, you went to industrial design, and then you tried marrying both of them, or is that right? Or is that? No,
Matthew Lee Burgess
It’s designed for applications? You know? Yeah. websites, applications, it’s now called user experience.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Oh, that’s. So you actually did you? Did you go to school for that to that?
Matthew Lee Burgess
After I was? Yes, I did. I’ve actually had my masters in in that field. That’s
Mahrukh Imtiaz
That’s incredible. So you like you’ve worked as a chef? Did your masters in user experience industrial design? And now you’re trying to marry them boat? Is that correct? Yes. I’m just trying to break it down in like very simple terms. Well, it’s a
Matthew Lee Burgess
It’s challenge. Like, this is a total designer thing to say, right? And I feel sorry, if we simply that, you know, I want to see if someone will deviate from a path if I put a box in the road. I mean, technically, that’s designed, it’s kind of frivolous. It’s, it’s more of like a psychological study than anything, right. But it’s designed because you intentionally change the world, to see if it would have an impact on the world. And that’s why I will, I will say, all day long that everything’s designed anytime you make a conscious decision to change the design, but
Mahrukh Imtiaz
We both can agree that you actually studied but more to learn more about how to apply that in your career. Yes. Perfect. So you worked as a chef, and you learned a bit more about industrial design. And then you’re like, All right, we could maybe work towards putting that industrial design knowledge to what you already love doing, because you wanted to do some more of cooking and like being a chef and, and I totally get that it’s really unfair going to school. And there’s a lot, I guess being a chef is just one of those professions, there’s so many other professions out there. Just out of Top of Mind social work, like you know, you go to school, you spend so much money, but your first job or your first subsequent jobs, you’re not getting much back. And it’s very frustrating. And you’re right, it’s it’s so unfair, but like, what were some of the challenges that you you dealt with when you’re like, Alright, I’m a chef, I have, I have the knowledge, I have the training, right? And now you have this industrial design knowledge and training as well. What were some of the challenges when you were like, right, I want to start putting content out there was
Matthew Lee Burgess
Finding time, you know, I I had I had loans from school, and I had to pay the bills and had some of the other burdens of life. You know, everything sort of brings you an impasse. At some point. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, we’re working on a project together. And he said to me, Matt, I have so many things that I care and love about and I feel like I’m not doing any of them well. And it was a really great encapsulation of just that. I idea of how do I how do I make room for something? You know how to make room and really give it the attention it deserves. And I mean, you can appreciate as I think we’ve talked enough and right and now that you know that I’m a designer, pastry chef, I’m probably struggling a little differently. Yeah. There’s a little bit of perfectionism in
Mahrukh Imtiaz
There. Yes, yes.
Matthew Lee Burgess
And so you can say it’s one of those two things. I mean, there’s, for me, there’s are opposite sides of the same coin, like, do I have enough time? Or am I too much of a perfectionist? If I’m too much of a perfectionist, perfectionist, I’m gonna run out of time. And if I
Mahrukh Imtiaz
And if I so how have you dealt with that? Like, I mean, the fact that you have a podcast out quite a few episodes, 100 plus downloads, while managing, again, paying the bills, doing all the other stuff? How? I mean, I know it’s it’s a journey, but how have you dealt with all of that?
Matthew Lee Burgess
I think it’s simply recognizing that I’m not going to provide any value to the world if I don’t provide anything that I need to get something out there, right. And in even some of it is simply from from design training, that I can think about something all day long. And I’m not going to get anywhere. But if I take what’s on my mind right now, and I externalize it, I’ll be able to look at it differently. And I can do that 100 times a day. Right? So instead of thinking about the perfect word to write down, I write down the word I have. And I look at it and I say it’s good enough, right? And then move forward. And when it’s not good enough, I change it. But it’s never been a question is never Is it perfect? And so it helps push things forward. So the big barrier for me and you hear this in pet funds. Story, you hear it in every one story, the first episode, you record, you record it, you listen to it, you record it, you listen to it, you record it, you listen, I’ve gone through that hell. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And in for me, every one got worse.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
I was like, Well, I was so naturally my first one and somehow second one, I’m sounding fake, because I’m like, Oh, I kind of already know what I’m saying. But I don’t really know what I’m saying. And the third one was just like, full of tears in the eyes. And yes, I totally, totally, totally can relate that relate to that. Yeah,
Matthew Lee Burgess
Yeah. But but there’s a point where you stop. And I think what the first episode for me, I had a point where I could I could see all of my muscles tensing as I was listening to each subsequent episode, right? I could, I could hear the perfectionist coming out. And I could see the perfection really good point, and then put it down for a bit and said, you know, let’s record the second episode. And then okay, that’s a little bit better. Let’s record the third one, and the fourth one, and oh eight, I have this idea that could go in between three and four. Let me record that five minute segment. And getting in the habit of simply talking something I’ve never been been great at i My dad likes to tell a story. When I was in 10th grade, or now, when I was 10 years old, when I was in fifth grade, I did not like to get up on stage. And so there was a one of those present. What are they called plays or presentations, or whatever they were everyone had to get up on stage and dance and sing. And I was so adamant to not put the costume on. But they forced me on stage to not feel like I would stand out on stage in front of everybody. I was the only kid not dressed up on stage. So there’s
Mahrukh Imtiaz
There’s always been this fear of like being out to the world, you know? And there’s actually a few very profound things you said? You said the question shouldn’t be is this perfect? The question should be is it good enough. And then the second one was start now and from the concept start now make it better later, because you can always make it better. And you just talked about how you really, you were always really scared of going on stages. So talk me through like how you went from? Yeah, and I do sometimes we’ll see that perfectionist in you. And obviously that comes comes and goes we know we’re always on a journey, and it’s always gonna get better. But we’re How did you go from? Okay, man, I have to do this perfectly. I’m so scared of talking to this person who’s still putting stuff out there. They might not be fully happy with it. But they’re still putting that out there. Can you break that down a bit?
Matthew Lee Burgess
I think there’s, there are two big elements to it. Some of it is just releasing control, just recognizing that. I can’t help anybody that can’t provide any information. Anybody if I don’t put any out there. You know, if I were to put it in a different context. You know, if you saw a train coming and you saw someone with their shoelaces stuck in the track, and they were going to be hit by the train, would you go help them even if it was imperfect? Or would you say, Ah, let me think about the perfect way to help this person. And if I can’t, Oh, too bad. It just doesn’t. It doesn’t make any sense. And I think it started to I started to frame the thoughts in terms of have, you know, I feel there’s value in what I have to say. And not just the fact that I’m saying it, but I think there’s actually value in the information I’m providing. Because there are things that it took a while for me to learn, it took a lot of long, hard hours for me to learn this. And if I can frame it in that way, it’ll help someone instantly, and they’re never gonna get in their hands. If I don’t, it’s one of the things that I struggle with in life. And I’m not going to give out my email address for this reason is that if I see someone who’s struggling, I want to help them, right. It’s one of the core things I do, it’s like, if you go back to everything I love doing, it’s really just to help people get some sort of experience or some sort of help. And I will, I will do anything I there was a, someone struggling, they just lost their their husband in a freak accident, and they’re taking over their husband’s business. And I looked and I saw that all their husbands information was all over the website, their hours were wrong. And I said, Listen, I’m happy to help you out. And just let me know, I have a few pro bono clients, you know, but I want you to get through this. And it’s just, it’s just what I do. And I really channel that person, that side of me. And it really helps get past the perfectionism. Because when you get to that level of assistance, and that level of sort of altruistic, you know, internal mechanisms, you get past the perfectionism, because the perfectionism doesn’t matter anymore. You know, that voice inside your head, you’re driving down the road, and you see someone with a flat tire. I don’t know about you, but there’s always a part of me that says, stop and help that person, right? Even if I’m late for something, it’s just in me, and I don’t always do it. I’m gonna be frankly, honest, right? It’s your there’s always the other side that says, Well, what if they’re a serial killer?
Mahrukh Imtiaz
That was my first thought when he said that I’m like, Oh, I don’t know if I would do that as a female. But yeah,
Matthew Lee Burgess
Yeah. But it’s just in me. And I think it’s channeling that that part, and then also sort of relinquishing control over life. And in some of it has to do with my age, I’ve gotten to a point where I’ve said, you know, what, all this stuff that I’ve been afraid of doesn’t matter so much.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
That’s very interesting that you say that, like all the stuff that I’m afraid of doesn’t matter so much. And you spoke about releasing control and reframing. When you did start your podcast, and you released it in September, ish, right? Last year, September 2020. For everyone listening, what were some of the fears that you were going through?
Matthew Lee Burgess
This is going to sound really strange, but it was more that someone I knew would view it. And somehow I would be exposed in some negative way. And I frame that very vaguely,
Mahrukh Imtiaz
I was gonna say, yeah. Okay,
Matthew Lee Burgess
Because it’s not specific. I, and I think that’s part of it. You know, that when you when you hear people tell you that your actions, your actions matter, but they, your your acute actions sometimes don’t matter. I would say that most of your actions don’t matter. But there were a few that really do.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
Yes, of course, yes. Some that are irreversible, and most of them are not permanent. Yes, yeah.
Matthew Lee Burgess
And in for someone who is focused on sort of the acute perfection of something, most of those fears really don’t have any meaning in the world, they do to you. And they’re important for that reason, because they’re a window into your concerns and your feelings and your, your your beliefs, your moral code, what have you, right, they help provide an insight into that, you know, when when it comes down to it, you just test those boundaries, right? You take those risks, you say, you ask that question that you just asked to me like, what really is the impact of this? And, and maybe you talk about fear setting, right? You say, Well, what are the bad things are gonna happen? What are the positive outcomes, you can mitigate any of these negative things to your setting? i Hello, friends.
Mahrukh Imtiaz
So this is background mark. And I just wanted to say that our friend Matt here, he’s mentioned fear setting. Fear setting is a concept that was originally or no actually, I don’t know if it was originally designed by Tim Ferriss, but he’s the one that talks about a lot in his book Tools of Titans. And you know, since I love you so much, I do want to go through it in a bit more detail. So fear setting is an exercise that you do when you’re really scared or something or when something’s really bothering you or when you don’t know if you take the risk or not. The way it works is you ask yourself around seven questions and these are the seven questions and I am reading this off the books so this is from Tools of Titans and the section is called My favorite thought exercise fear setting. So number one is define your nightmare the absolute worst that can happen if you did what you are considering what doubts fears and what ifs pop up as you consider the big change you can or need to make envision them in painstaking detail. Would it be the end of your life? Would it be the permanent impact, if any, and how do you rate them on a scale of one to 10? Then ask yourself Are these things really permanent? Number two, what steps could you take to repair the damage or get things back on the upswing, even if temporary, chances are, it’s easier than you can imagine. How could you get things back under control? Number three? What are the outcomes or benefits? Both temporary and permanent? Have more probable scenarios? Now that you’ve defined a nightmare? What are the more probable or definite positive outcomes whether in total confidence, self esteem, etc? are external? What would the impact of these more likely outcomes be on a scale of one to 10? Number four, if you’re fired from your job today, what would you do to get things under financial control? Imagine this scenario run through questions 123 above. Number five, what are you putting off out of fear? Usually, what we most fear doing is when we most need to do that phone, call that conversation, define the worst case, accept it and do it. Number six, what is it costing you financially, emotionally, physically to postpone actions? It’s not what it’s costing you to do it, but actually, what is it costing you to postpone action? And number seven? What are you waiting for? If you cannot answer this without resorting to the BS concept of good timing? The answer is simple. You’re afraid. So just do it. I’ll also have this in the show notes. So you can see it from there. But you know, now back to the interview, just
Matthew Lee Burgess
Asked me like what really is the impact of this? And, and maybe you talk about fear setting, right, you say, Well, what are the bad things that can happen? What are the positive outcomes? You can mitigate any of these negative things? Fear setting I pulled from from Tim Ferriss. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And. And it just came down to the fact that a lot of those fears were irrational. Or if they still, if they continue to be fears, if they felt rational to me, they didn’t outweigh the value that I could provide to someone else going back to that sort of altruistic side, you know, right. And it really was a conscious way of looking at the world that way. Now, there are a lot of people who put that message in my head. And I actively sought these people out. Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield, Tim Ferriss, Jerry Seinfeld, I mentioned the other day, everyone who has done anything extraordinary, has gotten past this. And it’s always the same thing, at least in my eyes, it’s always the benefits outweigh the risk. And it just had to find a way of getting to framing that that balance in a way that made sense to me. Yeah,
Mahrukh Imtiaz
I love that. I love that. And I think I love that you bring up the people who influenced you, Pat Flynn, Tim Ferriss, Jerry Seinfeld, and you’re right. It’s not that they didn’t have these fears. They actually talk about it to talk about all the fears. Like literally sometimes they’re looking at their and a reason like, Oh, my God, I’m going through this, but they got past it. And I love the way that you mentioned how you got past it is by reframing, every time a fear comes up, you reframe it to Well, I can’t add value until I put something out there, you know, via good value by value, there’s going to be zero value until something is out there. Even getting to that reframing. Would you say the most that happened? Mostly because you were you had the right voices in your head like the right influencers that you were listening to? Or was it like, certain mentors, like what was it combination? What helped you get to the stage where you’re like, you know what, I have two fears, I can feel the fears, and I will do it.
Anyway, time to wrap up part one. So if you want to listen to part two, go to Episode 16 that you’ll see in the show notes. And if you’ve been listened to this show, and think it’s about time that you start your own podcast and get your voice out there DM me the word podcast, and let’s try to let me see if I can help you with some resources. I’d love to help you out.
Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, you got this beautiful
Hey, you thanks for listening to Spicy Chai I really appreciate it. And to make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the podcast, the obvious. And if you want to learn more, head over to Mark imtiaz.com and until next time, my friend hit the record button or you know the publish lots of love from your favorite. You got this beautiful!
