Mahrukh Imtiaz

erin Baker_35_11zon

S2-EP012: Toxic Productivity Is a Killer: Finding a Joyful Way to Work in Business With Erin Baker. Part – 2

“Part of the reason I kept losing joy because I kept setting all these expectations for myself of what it meant to be an author and a good writer” – ERIN M BAKER

S2-EP00 – In this episode, Erin and I discuss finding a Joy-Full way of working in business processes. We talk about how we are never taught about doing work in a joyful manner. Toxic beliefs about productivity cancel out the idea of joy in work. Erin’s 4 basic ingredients to create joy are connection, curiosity, creativity, and courage.

Highlights from this episode: 

[4:45 What’s your journey as an author, why did you decide it’s time to write a book?

[11:58] What are the stuff like struggles as a first-time book author?

[14:31] Do you mind elaborating on the unwritten rules?

[25:03] When you talk to people and say to them chase joy, what are their concerns?

[37:33] When you say running a business is about playing the long game. And the only way to be in it for the long game is to put Joy first. So, what that does mean for someone who’s a creator, thinking of a side hustle, or starting their own business?

[40:15] Could you talk about two or three of those tools that someone could use today that could help them put more joy in their long-term business?

[53:12] Talked about how there’s a  lot to learn from our bodies, and what’s happening. How can someone start or figure out something is off, something is weird?

Connect with ERIN: 

Website

Instagram

LinkedIn

Facebook

Podcast

A little bit bout Erin M Baker

 Erin Baker is back for season two,she was a best-selling author of the book, Joyful AF. She  has a Ph.D. in Social Psychology and led a User Experience Research team at Facebook and was part of bringing Facebook Stories to 2 billion people. She was the Director of User Experience Research & Design at Microsoft Yammer and an Internal Family Systems Practitioner and Elite Certified Neurotransformational Coach.

Resources mentioned:
Books – JOYUFULL AF


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Transcription:

Mahrukh Imtiaz: So Erin Baker is back for season two. For all those that want to hear more about their story tuned into Season One, because we’re not going to do that today. But they have added one more accomplishment in their sea of accomplishments, which is now they are a best selling author of the book, JOYFULL AS FUCK. The essential business strategy were afraid to put first. Wow. And welcome back to Season Two.

Erin Baker: Thank you. And I think you’re the first person who’s said the ads fuck part. Everybody’s JOYFULL AF. So softly Yeah.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And it’s like joyful, like not the joyful like JOYFULL. For people listening. It’s actually J O Y F U L L. And I have this book. And I know people who are listening won’t be able to see this. But I have this book right in front of me. And you see the amount of posts I have Erin. So this is this is kind of what I meant by I’ll be going through a lot of random stuff that I’ll pick out and then I have questions about and just want to speak to you about so you have to just be prepared for a lot of random shit.  

Erin Baker: I am ready for this. Yeah, I am ready for this. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love it. I love it. So let’s, let’s ask about let’s ask some sort of random thing to say. Let’s hear about your journey as an author, like why did you decide okay, you know what, now it’s time for me to write this book. 

Erin Baker: Yeah, so let me start with this wasn’t the book that I set out to write? So 2020 brand new information. All right, so this is the book that I set out to write. And I had a podcast back in 2020, called Life and the end, Mahrukh was actually on the podcast talking about really awesome and about being a disaster and a master. 

And I started thinking, Wow, there’s so much good gold here in this stuff. I really could write a book on this. And I will say, I started the process of writing a book completely selfishly, because I had told myself a story that I’m not the kind of person that can write a book. And I thought, you know, what, what if I challenged that? 

What if I can write a book? And so I started off with this idea of like, why don’t we look at all these ads from the life of the end pot life in the end podcast, and write a book. And then I started getting into it. And I went, Oh, I’m actually kind of bored by this, which reminded me of one of your other distinctions, which is if it’s not fun, do something else, right, if not fun pivot, so. So I started thinking, 

Okay, well, what do I want to share? And so I went back and looked at, well, what have I learned over the past few years in business, and I got out colored pencils, and I started mapping out the wins I had in green, and the failures I had in red and the insights I had, and just all these things, and I started to look back, and I went, Oh, I have some really interesting things to teach here. 

And you know, on what makes helped me thrive in business. And I had this imagination about being in the wilderness and how we have to like survive, not just survive, but thrive. And so I started this whole book called hustle, hustle, hustle, right? And so I started off with I’m writing a book called Life about and then I moved to this thing called the 10 Essentials. 

And then I kept being like, No, I’m not having fun. And I couldn’t put a finger on what was wrong with the whole thing. And I finally said, You know what, I’m shelving the book, maybe I’m not meant to write a book, maybe this what if I can? Well, maybe what if I can’t. And as I paused, some of the concepts kept coming back from, you know, colleagues and friends. 

And so one day, I asked my wife, Merrill, you know, like, what are your business friends struggling with? And she said, something very vague, like, you know, they don’t want to hate themselves or their business. And for some reason, my brain went, well, what’s the positive side of that? What do they really want or need, and the word joy came out of my mouth. And Joy was not in my vocabulary before this. It was in other people’s vocabularies, but not mine. Oops, I lost a year ago with colored pencils. Oh,

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I lost you first. Come back there. Yes, you’re back. Okay. So Joy was not capillary Yes.

Erin Baker: Right. So Joy was not in my vocabulary. And then I started looking back at that timeline I did in colored pencils. And I went, Oh, this is a timeline of my journey. And every time it’s green, it’s because I was pursuing joy. And every time it’s red, it’s because I got clingy and needy and lost my joy. So I thought, Great, I’m gonna write a book on joy, smooth sailing from here, right?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I mean, what could go wrong? What could go wrong? You just wanted to Write Right? But what could go wrong? Like it’s so simple,

Erin Baker: Righ? It’s right. So, so simple to write a book. So I said to myself, there’s two things if I’m gonna write a book on joy, two things need to happen. One is, I have to be joyful, as fuck as I write it. And two, it has to be joyful to read, I will tell you keeping to those two requirements was the hardest fucking thing. 

Because there’s so much that comes up when you write a book about being a good writer being you know, coherent, am I saying something useful? Where does this go in the book, what is the structure the chapters, and then I have a background in academia, I have a background in tech writing. And so it’s really easy to deal serious.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: No big deal, small accomplishment.

Erin Baker: I kept getting all these small accomplishments, right? But so all I kept finding was I just kept hitting these walls of I’m losing the joy, I’m losing the joy. And so finally, I was really, you know, year and a half into this at this point going, am I really not cut out to write a book and I thought, 

Okay, I’m gonna do one last ditch effort. And I went back to my former career was in tech, and we did user research. And so what we would do is interview people. And when an insight came up, we put it on a post it note, and then at the end of, you know, talking to 810 people, we’d have all these post it notes, and then we’d figure out what’s the story that we tell the product managers? 

I love moment sites, right? That’s so much. Yes. Right? Yes. So I thought, well, what if that’s my book, because I kept having all these issues with structure and where does this go? And what are the chapters? So I said to my book, Coach, what if I just do post it note insights? 

Right, I write little chapters, it was chapters at the time. And what if I give myself full permission to just be left with a bunch of post it notes that don’t tell a story, right? They end up telling a story at the end naturally, but I gave myself full permission to have a book that was so unconventional. 

All, but it didn’t have a narrative or linearity. It just had all these bite size insights. And then I realized, Oh, I lose the joy when I open Microsoft Word because that academic self comes out and that person comes out. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And plus word is so boring. It just looks so boring. Yeah,  Oh, yeah, I had a lot of fun reading it. And you know, I think, for me, it was just so much fun that I was able to just pick out pieces and just go from Chapter Chapter. 

Like, I didn’t have to read it from A to B, or C to D, like, you know, for me, I didn’t I didn’t do that. For me. I was like, Okay, I’m gonna go read this chapter. Because it’s just seems very interesting to me right now. And then yeah, Chapter led to another chapter.

Erin Baker: And usually, there’s a choose your own adventure.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah. So do you have the book? 

Erin Baker: Its not joyful, joyful. So my book coach had this brilliant thing where she said, You know what, Erin, you’re great in conversation. There’s a reason you love to podcast, he, what if you record everything into your phone, as if you’re talking to somebody. And so that’s when the book finally clicked, 

I started recording these bite sized post it note insights into my phone. And it took only about a month, month and a half to go from, you know, I don’t know if I’m gonna have a book to 60,000 words that that we edited and expanded on. 

And so now when you read the book, it’s really it’s that column conversations instead of chapters, because they were initially a conversation between me and an imaginary person on the other end of my phone. And that was the joyful way to write that. And I think, from what I’m hearing, that’s joyful for people to read. 

Right. And so my first second book that was the 10 Essentials all about adventure, actually, the more adventure some book was, the one that I wrote, is as joyful as if because you could actually choose where you went. And it’s all about what’s your joy, right? Yes, joyfully. Read it your way. I love that. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And so tell me more about like, all the stuff that came up for you while you were writing this book, like we, we know about the struggles most first time book authors go through, but I don’t think anyone really talks about it as much. So I would love to hear like what came up for you?

Erin Baker: So much. And part of the reason I took the long winded route and telling the whole two years of the story is because it’s important to know that there was stuff that was coming up right at the beginning, that was led to this two years. One was, what am I writing about? What am I have to say to the world? Is this valuable? 

So the reason the and book didn’t really resonate? I was like, well, what’s the story here? What do I want people to take away from it? You know, other than it’s a bunch of really cool concepts? Yeah, they were they were really cool concepts. Really cool. But I didn’t have a coherent like, why is this valuable? So there was a whole lot of that coming up and like, well, if it’s not valuable, I don’t have a story. 

Why am I writing this? And so a lot of the early stages of writing were all around. What is it that I have to say that’s valuable for people? And then going back and forth on am I writing a memoir? Am I writing a business book? What’s the audience? You know, you’ve read the book. 

Now, this is not it’s about business, but it’s about so much more. But if I had written a book that was just about joy in general, it wouldn’t have spoken to people the way it speaks to people and in business, and it’s actually speaking to people beyond so who was my like, so much was, who was my ideal reader? 

What do they need to hear? What do I need to say? And then that’s just the intellectual side of things, right? Then there was the deeper? Am I qualified to say this? Why am I a good writer? Am I being clear? Is what I’m offering. You know, once you’ve got something in your head, it becomes this, like, you think everybody knows it? Right? Right. 

It’s called the curse of knowledge. So everything I was writing was like, Is this at all useful? Don’t people know this already? You know, and then every time I hit a roadblock, it was am I not meant to be a writer? Am I not good at this? What’s wrong with me that I can’t that has taken me so long. What’s wrong with me that I’ve gone through two different book iterations before joy, you know, so easy to just spend.

And that’s part of the reason I kept losing joy because I kept setting all these expectations for myself of what it meant to be an author and a good writer. I was supposed to be doing this faster. I was supposed to be doing this funnier. I was supposed to be doing this more lighthearted, more serious, like all these rules, right? unwritten rules, like you said.

Yeah, right. And so that’s part of the reason I ended up doing the the recording on my phone, is because I didn’t have unwritten rules about how to speak into my phone. I had unwritten rules about what happens when you open Microsoft Word, to write a book.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yes, yes. And I think many people do. Do you mind elaborating on the unwritten rules part because I know it’s in the book. But I would love for you to just go deeper into that.

Erin Baker: It’s and it’s something I love talking about because I think it’s one of the biggest things that steals our joy, right in any endeavor that we’re going through. So for me it was writing a book but I also have unwritten rules about social media, I have unwritten rules about how I show up as a coach, I have unwritten rules of what it means to be a business owner. 

And really, when I say unwritten rules, it’s the things we’ve told ourselves we’re supposed to do. Or this is the rules and regulations of the World Road. So I write a lot in the book about Instagram. So you know, my unwritten rules about Instagram, where you have to have a pretty Canva graphic. And, you know, I would constantly be like, 

Well, is this a story is this a grid post, and well, it’s a grid post, only if it’s really valuable, or if it’s really pretty, really pretty Yeah, and only post once a day, but make sure you post every day. And oh, make sure you’re sharing enough about your life and your stories that people don’t think you’re just a boring business person. 

Like, imagine the number of things that are unconsciously and consciously in our heads every day, as we’re showing up, that we have decided our truth of how we have to do something. And you know, you can sit and look at any aspect of what you’re doing personally and professionally and probably come up with a dozen rules. Some of them might be true, right might be, but what 

I have people do, and I do this for myself is once you’ve got that list of unwritten rules start looking at him and going which one do I want to go test? If it’s true, right? So what if I go test the idea that I don’t have to do a Canva graphic? For every grid post I’m playing I’ve been playing with one of the unwritten rules was, you know, for so long on Instagram, everybody had these like very, you know, well manicured grids, right, where all the all the colors are the same? 

And you know, sometimes brand, the brand are paying Yeah, we’re Yeah, people will have like, you know, every other post, like I know, I’ve seen somewhere like every other post is a post of them as a picture and then, right, and like they have all these methods, right? And I started testing the idea, like, what if my grid doesn’t have that coherent brand? 

I mean, I try to some degree when I feel like it to like, make things go here, but I was like, what if it’s okay, if it doesn’t have this, like, pretty window dressing? People still follow me? Yeah. Yeah, people still find my content. Interesting. Right? Yeah. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And what does that mean about me? Right me about me. It’s so true. Right? 

Erin Baker: And so one at a time, when you start breaking those rules and rewriting the rules for yourself, that’s when joy can come back into the process. It’s when we show up somewhere and say, Okay, well, how do I conform to how this is supposed to be? If that doesn’t fit with how we want to show up, that’s going to be a joy suck?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Certainly will be and to break it down for everyone listening today, you know, because I do love doing that is I’m a beginner creator. And I’ve just heard okay, I know about these unwritten rules now, but for me, I’m likely it will well, what does that mean? 

Maybe I’ll take out a pen and paper maybe I’ll open up Word if that feels good to me. Or maybe I’ll just start recording on my phone just on a notepad or whatnot and just say, Okay, well, I think if I need to create videos on Tiktok, or if I feel like I need to create posts on Instagram, it has to be the best video it has to be really well edited. 

Or the Instagram posts have to be beautiful in Canva. And then I write all of the rules that I have around posting, or I have to post every day of the week and I have to post three times a day sometimes yes, some Tik Tok creators say that right? 

And like you said, post about my life and be interesting and be funny and be entertaining, or is this valuable to someone? Get a picture of me drinking coffee? Is that even worth posting? And write about all those unwritten rules? And then like you said, I love that. 

See which ones I can go challenge. Like, can I just mean just making this up? Can I post pictures of me just drinking coffee just because I want to, you know, and just write some. And I love concepts so much, because it just goes back into how we can become more aware of what’s playing in the unconscious, right? 

Because we’re just on automatic doing things. And we’re like, oh, yeah, I know what I’m doing. But when you sit down, you’re like, Wait, what are some rules that I have about this? What are some that actually make? Like you said that some might make sense. And some might like just you’re just like, Okay, well, this is ridiculous. This does not make any sense. I don’t know why I thought this was a rule to begin with.

Erin Baker: And I think is this the awareness when you start reading the rules down, just as you were naming, you know, all the off the top of your head, the rules that you might have on social media, I was exhausted, thinking. 

How was mark on post, right, your track of all these things, and sometimes you’re keeping track of completely competing rules, right? Be funny. Don’t be too funny. Be professional. Don’t be too professional. Right. And so you get caught in this like internal tug of war and this often, 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: But don’t post too often.

Erin Baker: Right? It’s so yeah, you get like exhausted by this. Of course, you don’t want to show up. Of course, you put pressure on yourself to have it perfect all the time. And it’s just the easiest way for the joy to be completely sapped from any experience, right.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Absolutely. Yeah, go ahead. 

Erin Baker: And I’ll say, the new the the thing that I think is really profound once you start challenging the rules is actually setting the new rules. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Oh, yes, the new rules

Erin Baker: And again, I don’t You don’t have to call them rules because that sounds rigid. But like, you know, I love having the like, post whenever I got damn well, please rule, right and the like, go into Canva when you feel like playing in Canva.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Right, exactly. 

Erin Baker: And so they maybe they’re more, you know, GPS guidelines, you know, compass guidelines, but not rules. But then, you know, once you start looking at all the rules, you’re falling that you don’t want to follow. 

It really can become a fun exercise to say, Well, cool, what do I want to say my new declarations rules are for showing up? And how can I play and have really a lot of fun with what those are?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah. And what was coming up for me while you were saying that is when we do things just because we want to do them. And just because we’re having that fun in the process is joyful for us. But then we don’t care as much about the results either, right? 

Because then let’s say we do spend seven hours editing a video. And let’s say it gets seven views. We don’t give a fuck, because we’re like, Hey, what I had so much fun doing that, that feels authentic to me. You know, I’ll keep doing this. 

And I’ll keep showing up. Because this is fun for me as well. So I think it yeah, there’s that piece that people need to hear as well, that when you start having fun in the process, because you have to like enjoy the process. 

Don’t worry about the results. Have fun in the process. But like, how do you have fun in the process? Well, by actually having fun. Yeah. And there’s nothing wrong with it. Yeah.

Erin Baker: And having, you know, having a ball figuring out what what fun looks like for you. Yes. And I will say, energetically people feel that on the other end. I mean, I remember a colleague of mine actually posted that she spent three hours on a real that was like, five seconds long. 

I saw her post that and then I saw the reel and I was like, I can feel the energy behind how much fucking fun she had. And it was, it was one of the best I still I share that reel with people all the time. 

Because I’m like, Look at this, like, you can just tell this person just fucking love doing this real and it wasn’t profound. It wasn’t something that necessarily like game changed her her business or anything. But you can tell when on the other side energetically when someone’s sewing showing up as this is what I have to do to be a social media content creator.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Versus a legit business owner.

Erin Baker: Right? Or legit? Yeah, versus pocket. This is so much fun.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love that. And I’m gonna take a tangent and go into the book, when I’m holding it up. And the first thing that I do, because these are post tips, and basically like we and guys, I mentioned in this book, you’re famous. So I’m pretty famous. So not that I’m biased at all when published. So you know, popularizing this book for that reason, but it was really awesome. But anyway, back to my question. So you talk about this is a chapter called Listen, all you all it’s a sabotage. 

Erin Baker:  A title that was so joyful, even coming up with that title.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love it. I love it. It’s like Texas as well. Right? 

Erin Baker: Well, it is and it’s also a Beastie Boys reference. So for anyone who was born in, you know, the 90s There’s a very famous song called you know, listen, all y’all it’s a sabotage. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love it. I love it. So there was a again, we talked about this quote, and we actually had this conversation in one of our mastermind calls, it’s Chase, joy and success will chase after you. And you write in this book as well of like, how when you asked me about that, you know, a lot of stuff came up for me because I was like, 

Oh, what do you mean Chase joy, because throughout my life, I had heard Chase excellence and successful chase after you, which I totally got from like this really awesome movie three idiots to Bollywood movies. If anyone hasn’t watched it, please go watch it. It’s on Netflix. But it is actually awesome. 

So definitely watch it but anywho back to like Chase excellence to success because that made sense to me. Because I was like, I have to become the best. I have to hustle harder. I have to grind and I love how you put it in the book as well. 

Which I didn’t even realize I’m like why I do do that I do fall follow all the hustlers like great Gary Vaynerchuk Tom Bilyeu Alex Hormozi I’m like oh ma did I notice this about my own self?

Erin Baker: I was waiting for you to come back and challenge me and go Erin these are not the hustles and grind. Well Mahrukh let’s let’s break this down.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And only Tom Bilyeu had to post yesterday. You better push harder and harder and harder to go. And I was like oh shit. But yeah. When when you asked me well, what if you change that word from excellence to joy Chase joy and successful chase after you? I reacted? 

I was like, Well, what are you talking about Chase joy. Like, if I’m having too much fun, that means I’m not doing things right. Right. So that comes up for so many people where they’re like, well, well I like you know, I don’t want to work out but like you know, it’s not fun from bugs good for me or I don’t want to do this but I have to do this. What would you see when people bring those up? You know, concerns up when you say this to them chase joy? 

Erin Baker: Yeah. So there’s a lot to unpack there. And I, this is one of my favorite stories from the book because you just so encapsulated. The Why would people have an objection? Really this idea of joy? 

Right, all the objections? So there’s the piece of like, well, I, you know, I don’t like working out, but I have to, I will challenge that and say, you don’t like the current way you’re working out? Have you have you even asked yourself, if there’s a joyful way to accomplish your goals.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: So true, that the right to be CrossFit?

Erin Baker: CrossFit, it doesn’t have to be gentle on yourself, it can be a whole lot of different things. And, you know, there are some things, there are very few things in life that, you know, we have to do, like pay our taxes. So I’m not coming out here and advocating and saying, you know, just follow your joy. And, you know, don’t follow responsibilities, none of that. We don’t want anyone in jail, please pay your taxes, please pay your taxes, please follow some of the basic laws, you know, wear seatbelts.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Wear seatbelt, even if it’s not joyful.

Erin Baker: Right? Safety first. But what more so is the thing is, especially when it comes to business, or any sort of goal pursuit, it’s we’ve gotten this, this idea in our heads that going after things needs to be hard and going after things needs to be let’s see, what’s what’s the word I want to use here. It’s like, almost, if you’re not miserable, you’re not doing it. Right. Yeah, or, you know, just accepting the truth that certain things just have to happen, right. And we put a lot of value in ourselves as productive human beings. Right. And so when it’s hard, it feels more productive, right? 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: So true

Erin Baker: When it’s miserable, it feels more productive, right? So like, all of this stuff leads us to accept our fate, as we’re just not going to like some of the things that we have to do we of course, we have to hustle. Of course, we have to grind. Of course, we have to follow that strategy that that business guru was talking about, because they know best and yada, yada, yada. 

The other piece is we’re not taught about what joy is really all about. And so sometimes we have these associations that well, if I followed my joy, it means I would you know, for you is I’d be on the couch watching Netflix at McDonald’s, lazy, buggy fucker homeless. Yeah, lazy motherfucker. 

Yeah, what that tells me and I think I told you this is that you probably need some rest, before you can pursue your joy. And there’s this feeling we have that pursuing our joy means shirking our responsibilities. And what that tells me is that our responsibilities have become too problematic, in a way. 

So I tell people, if what you’re thinking right now is a joyful pursuit is something like being on the couch watching Netflix, you need rest. Right? Right. And then I say, if you haven’t thought about joy in your business, that’s because you haven’t been or professional life, whatever it is, if you haven’t been taught about how to pursue joy in that, that’s because we haven’t been taught how to pursue joy. 

And remember not to pursue excellence. Right? Right. You and you had a great conversation with me about this, right? Like you never thought about, well, what would be the joyful way? Let’s say, you know, we’re on this podcast right now, what would be the joyful way to do spicy Chai? I mean, you that was just sort of a mind blowing moment, for right through.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And it definitely changed the way I kind of went about my podcast too, right? Because like, I think before, even we will, like, and we’re working on this, because we do have an episode with the wonders, right? And I remember like getting on that and being so professional. And then we got done with the recording. 

And I’m like, oh, that didn’t feel great, you know? And I was like, Man, why wasn’t it being myself? Right? Because the unwritten rule for me was, if it’s my podcast, I have to be more professional. And after the recording, actually, I was like, oh, I need to be more myself. This is why I started the podcast. And it’s funny, because I actually started when I started recording, like, I was like that. 

And then obviously, as I became more and more popular, the pressure and everything started coming on me and I’m like, Oh, now more people are listening to me. So now I have to be more professional, or I see giving more value versus yep, I forgot that the reason people started listening to me was because they liked me.

And my voice. So this is like so so true. Everyone, like honestly, if you are a beginner podcaster and you’re like, Well, I don’t know, I don’t know if I can, you know, be myself on my podcast. Yes, you can. And yes, and I think you should.

Erin Baker: I will and I will say all the podcasts, I do a lot of podcast interviews right now, because I have a book out right. And my favorite ones are the hosts who are, you know, just having fun having conversations, you know, swearing yeah and doing that Right. 

And what I think so profound about what you’re saying, right is also as we get better at things become more masterful at things, I’m going to quote you, where we give ourselves less permission to be a disaster. We give ourselves less permission to be creative to be to innovate. And it’s really easy when you start, let’s say, a podcast to look around at how everybody else does it and decide that their way is the right way. Yeah, right.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Or that’s where I need to go next.

Erin Baker: Oh, that’s what I need to go. Yeah, exactly. And so we lose our joy, because we don’t ask ourselves, well, what would make showing up to this podcast for me joyful every fucking time? 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I lonely? Absolutely. 

Erin Baker: And for me, it’s joyful to be able to show up on a podcast and swear, yeah,

Mahrukh Imtiaz: We just have a good conversation.  

Erin Baker: Good conversation, right? A lot of people get into the interview or space or 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: What tell me about these X amount of years.

Erin Baker: Right? Right. So I think it’s really important for anyone, whether it’s, you know, being a beginning podcaster or a content creator. I also want to say, if you’re someone who has a message for the world, and you go, Well, should I start a podcast? Should I do social media? Should I do a blog? 

Should I be on YouTube? Listen all the time, as I said, should get right. What do you want to do? Right? So for me, I have a love hate relationship with social media, because I have a hard time feeling like it’s a conversation and you know, but you know, I’ve had this conversation before, right? 

Where to me for whatever reason, like my joy is conversation. My superpower is conversation you’re joining your superpower are very aligned, just totally so. So zone of genius is conversation. So I I struggle more on social media. 

And when I’m able to find it as a conversation, I have a lot of fun, but it’s sometimes doesn’t feel that way. Podcasts are a conversation for me. I wrote my book as conversations. Right, right. So I will say to listeners, think about what is your zone of genius? What is your joy and find the mechanism of delivery that follows your joy? If it’s talking if it’s writing, if it’s video, if it’s whatever?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah, yeah. And that’s so true. Because you see so many different creators doing different things now, like some people will roleplay because they like acting, they just love it. Some people will just be painting with like some voiceover on top. 

They just enjoy painting and they just like recording that and some people are working, and they all just be cooking and I’m doing voiceovers and talking about martial arts, like you know, just random even on Tik Tok. 

There’s this Korean mom, and she’s just make sushi, but life stories while she’s making the sushi. That’s amazing. It’s crazy, right? But she loves Nikki’s if she said that she was like, all I was doing was doing something I love and then voiceovers were stories. 

And I think she’s like a transformation coach as well. I think like, that’s what she tells stories. And I’m like, Oh, this is so creative. And I was completely ahead. And you know, yeah. Like, why would people want to watch like food videos, when you’re telling them stories? Well, you never know what people like, you know? Yeah.

Erin Baker: And your people will like what you like,

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Exactly. And it’s a giving an even if there are people who might hate it, because there will be people who hate it. Yeah, good. No, good. Let them leave, like, you know, yeah, bring more of your own people in and I think that yeah, that’s one of the lessons that I think took me a long time to really get into it’s like, 

Oh, it’s okay for people to not like me, it’s okay for people to hate me for okay for people to unsubscribe, or unfollow, even though it still hurts my hurts me a lot telling me I cry a lot. You know, but I mean,

Erin Baker: I hate it, too. I mean, it I hate the human. It’s a human thing, right? It’s every time someone unsubscribe, what do I do?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: What did I do? Why are you like me? Though it’s true. But it’s like one of those things, you have to keep reminding yourself, well, this is a good thing just means I’m more myself, I showing up more and more. And it’s so interesting, because we were talking to one of my really good friends. 

And we were just like talking about this one Creator. And they were like, oh, this person posts too much. And, and in my head. I was like, well, actually, I don’t think they post enough. It was so weird. And I was like, I actually feel like, I don’t think they’re close enough. I can just keep consuming them. 

And yeah, reminded me of the same conversation we’re having right now. It’s like, for some people, you’ll be too much. And for some people, it’s like, I cannot get enough of this person.

Erin Baker: You know, what I think is really also profound about it is that your people, once they found you energetically aligned will follow you no matter what you do. So a lot of people are really afraid to like change their message over time.

I am someone who my social media is all about business owners. I will tell you secretly, my niche on coaching is all over the place because a lot of people come to me for different things. But I’ve often asked myself, you know, these, you know, what if I want if I pivot, right, so I pivot that pivot in my life and the N podcast to shift starters and I thought, oh, no, what if I pick I mean, thought for a brief moment. 

But there’s this The way in which, once people have you energetically as an align fit, they’re gonna follow you no matter what. So you can, you don’t have to stay stagnant once, that’s the thing that people get into, okay, I’m being me. And now people like this version of me, so I must have to stay here.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Right? Right. Again, going back to like, Oh, what do I have to do for people to continue liking, you know, just being yourself,

Erin Baker: Keeping yourself and keep evolving and you know, people surprisingly will come follow you. I’m, I’m watching a creator right now who’s really evolving her message. And honestly, that message is not as aligned for me anymore as much as it could have been. 

And I love that she’s doing that. And I love that she’s, you know, bringing along people who are aligned with her message, and I’m still gonna follow her energetically because maybe her message isn’t aligned for me right in this moment, but it might be in the future. 

And I just think it’s really inspiring, to be present to that and to be have someone who’s leading the way and willingness to just be with whatever is present for them right now and sharing that with the world.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: So true. I love that that you know what, your message keeps evolving. And not only that, but people who really like your energy will follow you no matter what. No, I really like that. Yeah. So yeah, like your Your vibe attracts your tribe

Erin Baker: It does. And you know, I this is talked about ad nauseam and content creator space, but you know, the number of followers means jack shit, seriously, right?

Mahrukh Imtiaz:  I mean, so true.

Erin Baker: Right? I have a very small following on social media have very small email list. But I love that I have that. And you know, I know who’s on my list. And I know how to write for the people on my list. 

And you know, I have zero intentions of blowing up to I mean, who knows, sometimes things go viral, and you can’t control it, but I don’t have it aspirations for more and more and more, I have aspirations for more aligned better people who like my energy.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: The community piece of it, right, like the connection that that see,

Erin Baker: That’s what makes it a conversation on social media for me is when it’s small, intimate, and I know people

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah, yeah. I love that we’re gonna go into another I love it.

Erin Baker: I love that you have posted because considering the whole book is post it note insights in my head. I know,   

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I didn’t have more post, it’s here. So here you said running a business is about playing the long game. And the only way to be in it for the long game is to put Joy first. So we’ve talked about this a little bit. But you talk about this long game and putting Joy first. So what does that mean for someone who’s let’s say a creator and thinking about a side hustle or thinking about starting their own business? Yeah,

Erin Baker: So let’s start. Before I talked about joy, let’s talk about this long game, because I think it’s really, really important, right?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I agree. I agree.   

Erin Baker: I will say when I started my business, back in 2018, mid, mid 2018, I remember talking to my financial advisor, who’s a very dear family friend of mine. And she said, I’m all on board with you doing this, but promise me that you’re going to commit to five years. 

And she said that because you know, in her head she’s talking about, you know, it takes a while to get things up and running to get a name for yourself. But also economic cycles happen. And then when COVID hit, she actually said add a year. And then when COVID extended for another year, she said add another year. 

So I’m you know, I always have been this is a longer game, right? Things take time. And what’s unfortunate in the business world, in the content creator world is that sort of overnight success story. Yeah. And that’s the outliers. 

Yeah, and the overnight success guarantee, you’ve got to understand that everything you’re doing is building up towards something in the future, you may not know what that looks like. I think sometimes people get too trapped into where they want to be in five years. 

And life just sort of doesn’t always adhere to whatever you think you’re going to do. But so knowing that you’re going to be in the long game that is going to take time for whatever goal you have, if it’s to grow a following if it’s to, you know, make a business out of something. I can’t imagine knowing I’m going to be in something for a long time and then saying, and it’s okay, I’m miserable. 

Right? Let’s say that I feel mad, right? I mean, I don’t even have a better way to describe that other than there is no way to sustainably stay in something and especially something whether you’re making money off of your content creation or not. There’s no There’s no there’s gonna be ups and downs right. 

And you can’t sustain yourself through ups and downs if you’re not really prioritizing how do I have as much joy as possible in this right? If you’re miserable, and then you hit a down God? That’s up I mean, it’s awful, right?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: It surely is it that is awful. And I love that in this book, you have all these like, gold traps and you know, these unwritten rules and all these exercises that people can actually go threw to figure out like, 

Okay, well, if I’m starting something that could potentially make me money, or maybe there’s another version of success, like, you know, more followers or maybe more community, whatever that version of success looks like for you, could you like talk about two or three of those tools that someone could use today that could help them put more joy in their long term business?

Erin Baker: Yes, yes. So I’m going to show because we are, you know, recording on Zoom. And so I have my magic bean jar, there’s actually this one’s full. And then I have another jar that started so this is one of my favorite concepts is this idea of magic beans. And, you know, I just said a few minutes ago, right? 

That that takes time. And that things, you know, have to you know, percolate. So I really think there’s, there’s the saying about, you know, you got to plant seeds, in whatever you’re doing. And I find that to be a boring concept. 

Because to me, when I think of seeds, I think of like a vegetable garden. And I think of okay, you put in, you know, a specific vegetable like a zucchini, you expect a zucchini to grow, you kind of know when it will grow. 

That is not how any of this works. So true, right? And in this entrepreneurial space, right? It’s more like you might plant a seed for now and go back to beans, you might plant a seed may not grow at all, you have no idea. 

You don’t know when it’ll grow, you don’t know if it’s gonna grow, you don’t know what is going to turn into and when the seed is for it. And when it sprouts, it’s like magic. Yeah. So I think of him as magic beans. And the idea is that you go out and do things that bring you joy right now. Right? Right now I am on this recording with you. 

This brings me joy. So I’m gonna put a bean in my jar after our conversation. Yay. Will that sprout into anything in the future? I don’t fucking know. But maybe. Yeah. And so the idea, right is to put a bean in the jar, knowing that I just I can look at this jar and I can count I’ve probably done 600 joyful things this year. I love right. 

Yeah. Right. And and that’s all it ever does visually. Right, right. And that’s all that I’ve ever see perfect. And I can trust at this point. Because I know from experience, that some of those beans in that jar are going to turn into something. 

It could be six months from now, it could be a year from now. And the more I joyfully do things just for the joy of it, the more likely some of those things will come to fruition as opportunities in the future. And oftentimes, there’ll be ones I could have never seen coming. That is one best part.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Right? Yeah, yeah. There’ll be times when we have one year goals or five year goals, like we have a certain vision of what we think our possibilities. But when you just like you said, keep planting those magic beans everywhere. I love that concept so much, because then things can come up that you haven’t even thought of dreamed of. So you’re not boxing yourself anymore in terms of what the universe or God or whoever you believe in has in store for you.

Erin Baker:  100%. And the key is to stay without agenda. Right? Yeah. So I didn’t come on this podcast in order to Yes, right. But I came on this podcast because having a joyful conversation with one of my best friends. He is the is the best, right? Absolutely. I love that. 

And I love the visual reminder. So I recommend anyone I have jelly beans in my jar. I don’t get tempted by jellybeans recommend something in your jar that you don’t get tempted to Yeah. Right, exactly. 

So, so you asked for, you know, a couple of things. That’s one thing that I think is really important and fun to play with. Another one is, you know, thinking about something that doesn’t bring you joy, but you still like talking about the gym, right? Yeah. Oh, I think of things like networking events. I also think I talked about this in the book about also, you know, I don’t love when people say no to things. 

And so finding something that like either you’re a little bit hesitant about it’s joyful. pneus, right, or you’re really afraid to do the thing, you really don’t like it. One way to joyfully pursue that is to turn it into a game. 

And so I talk a lot about like, okay, networking, people, a lot of people hate networking, turn it into a bingo game. So make a little board for yourself before you get on. If it’s virtual on the virtual call if it’s in person, make yourself a little you know, board and then put little things like has have a conversation where I don’t share anything about myself they do the all the talking or have a conversation where it takes five minutes before I know what they do for a job. Or you know,

Mahrukh Imtiaz: It’s so funny because it’s sounding like you know how when, when I was back in the dating world so having a conversation where you say nothing about themselves like yeah, that was pretty very common with some Brian so

Erin Baker: Yeah, I mean, totally. So like, you can have that little game in your head and that just takes all the pressure off or creates a little joy. Um, if there’s something you don’t want to do like you don’t like people saying no to you. 

I have a friend who went to the mall pre pandemic and just went into stores and asked for ridiculous things. And sometimes she got a yes to them and walked out and went, Oh, that’s not so bad. I can collect nose. Right. 

So I think turning things, one of the ways we get joy sucked right from us is when fear stops us from action. And sometimes that’s a good thing. We don’t have to run towards all fear.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah. Talk about that the trouble versus say, I’d say yes. I also posted post it note, by the way, yes. So yeah,

Erin Baker: But so too, if you do want to move through that fear, so turning things into a game or turning your goals into a game, right, so you have a certain follower account you want to get to or a certain revenue goal, turn it into a game, figure out what would be fun, you know, what are the like, milestones along the way that you want to go after, it can be awesome to do that. 

So that’s one other one. And then I would say, just at a basic level, I think the four basic ingredients, or foundational ingredients of joy are connection, curiosity, creativity, and courage. And if you want more joy, just in your day to day, every morning, ask yourself, What’s one tiny act of connection I can do today? 

What’s one tiny curiosity I can engage in today? What’s one tiny thing I can create today? And what’s one tiny act of courage I can do today. And just doing those will make your over time it’ll snowball into like, feeling like you’re really filling up on joy just by doing those tiny things. So you don’t have to do these grand sweeping things to be joyful, right? You can do really tiny things.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: What I love about all the tools you mentioned is that they are very easy to do. Like you can just get a jar, get some jelly beans, and every time you feel like you’re doing something that might you know, turn into something you can put in a jelly bean. 

Or even the second thing of turning things that you’re already doing. Okay, how can I make this more fun? How can I make this into a game? Like these are things that don’t require a lot? 

You know, it’s not like you’re asking them to buy an app or, you know, do this tracker? No, it’s just simple things that people can add to their daily lives or, honestly, even monthly on a monthly basis. Okay, well, what can I do this month, that could add a bit more joy into what I’m already doing? Right? So I think the mindset shift there too, right?

Erin Baker: Yeah. And when I say tiny, like really go for tiny. So when I think of like one of my examples, what’s a tiny act of connection, it could literally be sending heart texts, one of my best friends, just because I’m you know, and it doesn’t have to be related to the thing you’re doing, you know, one tiny act of courage could be sending a text to an old colleague and saying, 

How are you doing? Because maybe I was afraid to reach out or whatnot, right? Like, there’s just these really small ways that we can make changes that do have a profound impact of our on our overall sense of being joyful. So true.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: That’s so true. We’re going into another chapter of the book or okay section posted of the book. Now, just to bring us there. We talked about unwritten rules already. So yay, that’s the post it and this one is pretty big, because this is something that not a lot of people you should talk about a couple of years ago, but it is gaining a lot of steam today, which is a nervous system, and how not.

Erin Baker: I’m loving this up. That’s my favorite.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I know, literally Trapper says, Hello, it’s me your nervous system. I love that, by the way so much. I literally said hello, back. Okay. Of course, I’m a little weird. But I just wanted to say like, we talk about the nervous systems, obviously, there’s so much gold in your book about that, and you go into a bit more. But for people listening today, like, can’t share just some basics about the nervous system and how it could act up and then yes, when to how that plays a role.

Erin Baker: Yeah. So just first of all, you have a nervous system. Yeah, we’re not walking around floating heads. Even though we are taught to be in our logical, rational brains all the time. We’ve got way more neurons below our neck then than we realize. 

And you know, our nervous system really is a guidance system. And it does a whole lot of processing for us. And what it really does is it assesses threat so we have there’s sort of controversy of how many apps there are, but there are at least four apps that our systems go into so fight. 

So imagine, you know, hope something’s threatening to us. We want to run towards it, attack it right flight, running away, freeze, which is like deer in headlights, we don’t move, and then fawn, which is sort of like almost a people pleasing type.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: That’s so interesting. I had never heard of fawn before. And freeze is also something I recently heard about fight or flight

Erin Baker: Fight or flight. I have been around and known for a long time. Freeze and fawn are a little newer, but let’s make this concrete. So you make a post on social media, and someone criticizes you. If you’re in fight mode. If your nervous system is threatened, you might write an angry post back, right. If you’re in flight mode, you might delete your post. You might even go so far as to Fuck, I’m deleting my whole account. Right? Yeah, yeah, right.

Mahrukh Imtiaz:  So true. People do that, like you say that from sounding like, oh how, like, That’s so stupid. Nobody will do that. I have no creators who have done that based on one comment. Yeah, yep.

Erin Baker: Yes totally. If you’re in freeze mode, you might just sit there not knowing what to say. And then fawn mode, you might apologize. Tell them why they’re right. Try to appease them. And this is huge and content creation, because it’s not just in reaction to something that happened, like a comment, right? 

You can go into all of those modes before you even post so if you’re kind of predisposed to your nervous system is freaked out about something about, say posting on social media, a fight response might be you, right? from a defensive standpoint, light mode might be I don’t even show up on social media at all. 

I don’t even consider it freezes. I’m sitting here to type something, which is this in my MO freezes, I sit here to type something in my mind goes blank, and then fawn is constantly okay, what are these people need? What can I make sure to appease them? Right? And it’s our nervous systems are showing up every time we go somewhere.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah. And as you were saying that they were creators that were popping in my mind, too. Like there could be someone who has that fight energy, who has that flight energy. So it’s so true, like the energies you feel with certain creators to have.

Erin Baker: Yes, so part of the joy equation is learning about your nervous system and learning about, you know, what are the things that are coming up for you? And what causes that, right. So for me, I freeze because I have a sense of perfectionism. I also freeze because I see a lot of nuance in things. 

And so I have a really hard time communicating. I don’t believe in a lot of absolutes. And so I have a hard time communicating. Sometimes I have a part of me that comes up that really needs to give value and doesn’t believe anything I have to say is valuable. What is my response? Complete blankness.

Mahrukh Imtiaz:  Yeah, and that’s so ridiculous. Because I have known you for five years this year. And everything that I feel you say, is so valuable. Like, even when you’re talking shit, I’m like, oh, that’s the best shit I’ve heard. So that’s so weird for me to also hear you, right?

Erin Baker: And yes, just a reminder, your favorite content creators out there are messy human beings behind the sea. So Right. And so if you’re worried about how fucking messy you are, and you’re comparing yourself to what these people are showing on the outward know that we’re all messy human beings, we’re all having these nervous system responses. 

And the joy comes from understanding those and learning to soothe and then coming back to curiosity, and creativity and courage, really know, how can I get curious? Okay, what if I do post this? What might happen? 

And sometimes if it’s controversial, what if I get the courage? What if I get the courage to post more often and take up some space? What happens? And then learning how to manage all the nervous system responses that come along with that about like, I’m too much I should, you know, I should go hide, I should go run, you know, whatever it is, right? 

So there’s a lot to learn from our bodies about what’s taking away from our joy. And it’s oftentimes a lot of this inner these inner beliefs that perceived threat.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: And you said something really interesting. You said, there’s a lot to learn from our bodies. What’s happening? And you did mention, like, those are the four ways we react, but like, we are kind of like those people who knows who understand a little bit and how to understand what’s happening with us. 

Yeah, most of the people, I would say, 95% don’t know how to do that. Yeah. How can someone start, like, how can they even figure out something is off something is weird. And this is I’m flight right now. I’m in fight right now. How can they start doing that?

Erin Baker: Yeah. So don’t worry about having labels for it and just notice your energy. Are you showing up to creating something tight? Right? Where does that and just get curious. Just even get curious about? Do I feel sensations in my body at any given point, right. 

So part of just reconnecting to your body is finding little practices that allow you to be in your body, whether it’s, you know, if you have a workout routine, working out, it’s in your body, yoga, in your body, breath, work, meditate, there’s all these different ways, again, your body, which is starting to notice that you have a body response, and it could be noticing, if you show up to a post with anxiety, notice that, oh, I have anxiety about this. 

Don’t worry about figuring out what it is yet. And I will say I want to make it clear. It’s not just that our bodies are responding to threat or our bodies also respond to the positive, right? So true. Yeah, right. Joy lives in our bodies. 

For me, it lives in a pretty deep place, like kind of in my belly, but there’s times when you get full body chills, that’s your body or you know, there’s times when you’re like, I don’t know why I’m doing this, but like, I just have this feeling that I need to that’s your body and our bodies are wired towards you can once you spend more time with it, which is you know, it’s a journey and I’m still on the journey. I’m very much someone who was a recovering floating head. 

Oh, once you start getting signals then your your body will tell you when something feels Joy Before so if I might say like, do I want to start a podcast with a friend? And I might actually not ask myself the question in my head, I’ll see how my body feels about it. But that’s a journey that has taken me a lot of time because I’ve deliberately spent time getting to know my body signals. 

What’s a yes? wants to know, what’s the threat response? Right? And that’s through the group, the amount of time that you spent understanding? Yes, yeah. And I will say, I’m a huge believer, whether it’s therapy, coaching and having support for that. So I’ve had through both coaching and therapy, a lot of support and getting back into my body, and I could not have done it on my own. 

And I also want to recognize a lot of people have poor relationships, for good reason to their bodies, right, if they’ve had any sort of physical trauma, or we have a society of people who’ve been taught to be really conscious of their weight and their appearance, and you know, all that don’t go overriding that. If there’s something that’s not safe for you to go connect with in your body, don’t do that go find the safe places to explore.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love that. And for me personally, like just like learning more about my nervous system really started with meditation. It was like, Oh, let me try one minute meditation. And I mean, it didn’t work that well, because it wasn’t that focused. And then it went to journaling. And then I was like, 

Alright, let me try it a little bit. And then it went to, obviously therapy and coaching and all of that. So you’re absolutely right, like, keep trying things. And but you’re, you hit the nail on the head, when you said, get support for it.

 

Like you don’t have to do it alone. Like, you know, it can be in the form of therapists to be form of coaches, it could be for mentors, whatever, but we have a lot of blind spots. And we don’t even know, a lot of times when our nervous systems are reacting, or what if we have a nervous system? Great. 

But what is what’s really happening? Is it like just Yeah, it is and what is anxiety? Is this, like something that’s always triggering me, is this a one time thing? Yeah. Being able to like even step back and recognize that’s happening takes a lot of time and effort and a lot of support.

Erin Baker: It does. And that’s totally okay. And for all the fellow floating heads out there. You’ve been trained to be this way we have a society that’s rewarded, being intellectual, being analytical, being logical, we’ve been taught things like our intuition are to be ignored. 

And how often do you hear like in workout circles, your body lies, you know, work, you know, work harder, work through your body isn’t the best judge of things, right? So we have all these beliefs that tell us, you know, don’t trust our body, don’t listen to our body, your body doesn’t matter. 

And that’s just that couldn’t be further from the truth. And there’s a reason that so much of both in the therapy and coaching world, there’s a lot more focus on body based techniques, and even some of my coaching work. 

These days. I know that if I don’t start at that nervous system, body level with some of the work I do, I’m not going to help people with their their mindset or with their beliefs, or with the things they want to go do. It’s like a bottom up process at this point. That starts pretty deep.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love that bottom up process. Yeah, literally and figuratively. Yes, yes. I love that so much. Well, Erin, it’s been such a pleasure having this conversation, I think we have talked about, I think everything from the book, because we kept showing the book, this book is awesome. But aside from that, we we just spoke about how different things can impact your joy. 

Why it’s important, we talk shit about certain creators a lot, rarely talk shit, we didn’t take any names. But you know, we talked about different creators changing things up and how that feels good to them, if that’s good for their joy, this conversation, 

I think just goes back to the principles of doing things that bring us like fun happiness and joy is what’s going to be the best for us in the long term, even though it might not feel like it. And with that, before I go into my final question, could you let everyone listening today know where they can find you online?

Erin Baker: Yeah, so let’s start with that beautiful book that you just killed. I still get goosebumps seeing it. So go find a Joyfull  AF on Amazon. Remember, it’s F U  LL and then two places to find me online. 

One is, come find me on my website, you can hear more about what I do. You can also download a joy audit, which will help you get clear on where you are experiencing joy and where you’re losing it in your endeavors right now. So that’s  erinmbaker.com. Don’t forget the M Mikaela Mikaela. And then, you know, we talked about social media and do find me on Instagram I go in and out of joyful posting but I’m always present there and like I said over and over again. 

I love conversation. So send me a DM, share an insight you’ve had or ask me a question or if there’s something you’re stuck on. I am so down to have a conversation and try to help. So that’s Dr. Erin M. Baker.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love that. Awesome. All right. Now on to our final question. What advice would you give to Erin  Baker, who was starting to write this book, what is one thing you know, now, two years after writing a book and being a best selling author that you didn’t know, when you were starting to write this book?

Erin Baker: Hmm, that’s a great question. And it’s so clear for me, which is have the patience for the right message to emerge. So if I had been super committed to life, in the end, turning into a book, and then hired someone who was okay with me doing that, I would have had a very different book, it would have come out in a few months. 

And this was the book that needed to come out of me. And it needed the time it needed the process and needed this space. So have the patience for the right book to emerge. have the patience, be in the long game, right? have the patience for the right thing to come along? You don’t have to have anything overnight. And chances are overnight thing is not the right thing.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love that. I love that so much. What a great way to end this podcast. And like Aaron said, do read the book, honestly, I’ve been reading through and you can see the post. It’s I mean, you’ll see it on the blurbs and stuff on YouTube. 

But people listening, I have read this book, I loved it, especially the things that you can actually do is so practical, it’s so tactical, you can actually do these exercises to add joy into your life. So highly, highly recommend. And until next time, you got this beautiful right so that was one part of it. 

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Now we’re gonna do a quick rapid fire which is only gonna be 30 seconds. It’s okay I can segment that I’m adding for my bonus listeners. Okay, so this is rapid fire. Okay, let me know when you’re ready to go. Okay. Your favorite part of the book? Listen, only

Erin Baker: Listen, only all to sabotage your least favorite part of the book? You know what, what is joy anyway, for some reason came up. Really?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Yeah. What is one common myth about being an author that you want to debunk

Erin Baker: That being an author means you actually have to write the book?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Oh, I love that so much. What is something people spent too much time on while writing a book that you really think they should skipped entirely

Erin Baker:  Figuring out who their external reader is? Write the book you need?

Mahrukh Imtiaz: Oh, I love that

Erin Baker: Best thing about being an author having will read the book and have these really wild insights and having every person have something different. They’re taking away. Some people love the beginning of the book. 

Some people love the end of the book. Some people love the middle. Love it. worst thing about being an author hmm, I will say for me right now it’s noticing all the typos in the book that many many many fine tooth combs are still there. My perfectionist hates it.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love it. I love it. And last question, your best moment from writing the book any moment that comes up for you while while you were writing the book

Erin Baker: Literally for me it was pacing around my office writing the conversation about listen all y’all to sabotage. That conversation was game changing trust so yes.

Mahrukh Imtiaz: I love it. I love it. Awesome. Thanks so much for doing that. You’re welcome. All right, well, I am done using you know, Erin. We’re good.

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